The Happy Manifesto

Andrew Barnes, creator of the 4 Day Week movement

A four-day work week doesn’t simply lead to longer weekends. When implemented right, organisations can maintain the same level of productivity, and give their employees significant – and measurable – increases in happiness.

The four-day week challenges traditional concepts of work and productivity and encourages companies to measure output rather than time spent working. This shift in approach has led to reduced stress, fewer sick days, and enhanced team cohesion.

Andrew Barnes is the originator of the four-day work week idea, which has now become a global movement and has been implemented in multinationals, governments, and NGOs worldwide. Andrew has written a book on the four-day week and has been involved in numerous implementation pilots in countries and companies of various sizes.

Andrew’s tips for a happy workplace

  1. Introduce the four-day working week
  2. Look after your building
  3. Put great art up on the walls

Links

Transcript
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Hello, I'm Henry.

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And I am Maureen.

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And on this week's, uh, podcast we have Andrew Barnes, the

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originator of the four day week, who made it go absolutely global.

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Maureen, tell me what gives you joy at work?

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Well, first of all, let me just say, 'cause I know you're really

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excited about this four day week.

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You know, 'cause we've, we've introduced that.

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So this is gonna be awesome.

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Yes.

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So that not only has given me joy that you are happy about this, the joy

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that I am, that I want to share today.

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Cause one of the things that I really like is watching leaders evolve.

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You know, I mean we deal with adults and watching them come in

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to Happy and then, you know, just getting that leadership experience.

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But I have my athletes and you know, I talk about my young athletes a lot.

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So it's actually seen them evolve as young.

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Leaders as well.

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And I have two athletes that have really, really given me so

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much joy watching them involved in their athletics career.

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You know, as short as it is, getting two PBs, that's called personal

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Bests in the indoor competition.

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So that was really delightful just to watch them, really do well.

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Excellent.

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What's given you joy, Henry?

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Well, actually I'm gonna to go with the four day week as my, as my be because

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of, you know, Andrew Barnes is here.

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And I just love the four day week.

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Um, it's, you know, I get to get to stay off on a Friday, and as a result,

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I've done more cycling than ever.

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In last year, I did 149 miles, uh, a week.

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A week.

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And I've never done that before, and that's partly, that is definitely

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down to the four day week.

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But let me tell you about what, what other people have said about it.

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There's, um, what some of our, some of our, our staff have said,

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the best bit is having a day to do things for me, like activities,

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life admin, and just chill time.

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I've never felt so consistently fresh and full of energy starting the week.

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Um, there's another one here.

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I have a day off in the middle of the week and it really helps me decompress.

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Working days can be intense.

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Having a break in the middle of the week means I can step away

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from it and come back to work calmer and more compassionate.

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It's just, you know, It just is brilliant.

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Brilliant.

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The four day week is fabulous, so let's get on to Andrew Barnes.

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So, Andrew, tell me about how you got involved in the four day

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week, uh, with, uh, Perpetual

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Well, you know, I used to be a binge reader of The Economist magazine

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on planes from Auckland to London.

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Uh, this is pre pandemic.

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And I was sitting on a plane and I was reading an article and it said

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that the Brits were only productive for two and a half hours a day.

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And I thought, wow.

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And, and by the way, you know, everybody out there is listening and

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who is from Canada and feeling smug at this moment, you are only productive

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for one and a half hours a day.

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Wow.

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Now, I in seriously seriousness, sat down and said, well,

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why is that happening?

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What is it in the way in which we're working that means that

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productivity is so small?

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And if you think about it, you know, it's a lot of the interruptions

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that you get during the day.

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It's the phone calls you get, it's the dealing with personal admin.

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It's the fact often that you need, after a long commute, you need to decompress.

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So you, you know, you take all of that time.

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And obviously the overall scourge of, Uh, of meetings.

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So I, I thought, well, what would happen if I did a, a deal with my

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staff and I said, look, if you can think about how you might do things

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differently, if you could do it in four days rather than five, then you

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know I will pay you the same amount.

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I'm not bothered about anything.

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I just want, you know, I want the output.

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So I will, we'll, we'll pay you for five days.

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You only have to work for four.

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We've gotta keep the productivity and the output,

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the customer service the same.

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That was the deal, that was the argument I, I put to my team back in

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2018, and they rose to the challenge.

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Um, that then of course, led to the, what was the four day week movement.

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And, um, did you expect it to lead to, uh, the four day week movement

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or did you just think it was just, you would just do it yourself?

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I, I, I thought we'd get, we, you know, we're in New Zealand, right?

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We're very small.

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We, I thought we'd get one article on the New Zealand Herald and

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maybe we'd get something on the, on the local TV station watched

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by about, you know, 60,000 people.

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This is, this is not, you know, big stuff.

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What happens, we announced this thing, we did get the News Museum Herald.

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We did get the morning TV show, but then the phone just started to ring.

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I mean, I was literally in a room with answering one

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telephone, answering another one.

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People were just handing me phones.

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The media explosion went global.

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We had, even Jim Jeffries, the Australian comedian, did a skit on us.

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Oh.

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Yeah, prime time TV in the United States.

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We stopped counting at about 12,000 articles globally.

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And then when we announced the results of the trial, we got that again.

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And then when we announced that we were doing it permanently, same

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gig, it was sort of, you know, 12, 13, 14,000, with companies

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as well, picking up a telephone.

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So it stopped just being media and it went into organizations

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from all over the world came in.

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And, and I, I frankly over said I just couldn't drink that much coffee with,

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with CEOs to work out, uh, how we did it in the company and how they would do it.

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So then we wrote the book and then we, we created the Empire Empire and

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inverted commas, that's four a week.

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We're now in, I don't know, 20, 20 something countries worldwide.

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Pilots all over the place.

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12 staff on every continent other than Antarctica.

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Um,

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But tell me first of all about, about, your pilot.

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So you Perpetual is what's

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Perpetual Guardian is New Zealand's largest, what we

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call statutory trust company.

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Um, there's no real direct equivalent in, in, in, say, the UK, but

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we do will's, trusts, estates, that's our private client stuff.

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But we also were a supervisor for the New Zealand Capital markets.

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It's a specific role, uh, that we have.

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We've actually sold that half of the business now.

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But, so the, the organization about 320 strong.

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We have about 17 offices.

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We have retail outlets as well as, uh, as union, your traditional head office.

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We have call centers.

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We have.

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As I said, branches.

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We have people who bill on billable hours like a law firm.

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So we're a bit of a, a mishmash Yeah.

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Yeah, and that's quite, it's quite important because nine times outta 10,

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it's often people who are like lawyers or accountants who bill by the hour who

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go, you know, it wouldn't work for us.

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It sort of does.

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Um.

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So when you Billable laws is a great thing actually.

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So what happens with a law firm, it does this billable hour thing.

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And so they say we can't possibly change that.

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But if you think what they do is they do billable hours and then

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they look at the number and they go, client's not gonna pay for that.

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So we'll allocate a bit of time, which we're gonna take off that,

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and then it still looks a bit weird.

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So then they take it off.

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And in the end they come up with the number that the client, they

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think the client is prepared to pay.

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Now actually the whole process is about how long things are

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taking their allocation of cost.

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It actually has nothing to do with what you bill.

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So what you find now is increasingly come, you know, law firms that

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gone to the four oh week, what they actually do is they stop that process

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and just bill what the client, they know, the client is prepared to pay.

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Because if you think about it, you know you've got a consulting engineer.

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The engineer want two of them.

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One, they do the same piece of work, uh, the same quality, the same output.

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If you're doing billable hours, why would you pay the least

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efficient one, say who takes an hour twice as much as the efficient

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one who takes half an hour?

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It, it, it, it doesn't make any sense at all, and that is what billable hours do.

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I mean, you, the client pay for the inefficiency of the

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organization that is working

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So what, what was the result of your pilot?

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You, you, I think you did increase productivity.

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Oh yeah, well, look, you see, it was our stroke of genius.

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I'd like to say it's a stroke of genius.

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It was actually a fluke, really, uh, one of the acade local academics picked

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up a telephone and said, you know, actually, this looks very interesting.

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Do you mind if I, I do some research?

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Now, I'd always thought about it, but I wasn't sure how we would do it.

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So we ended up doing two lots of research, qualitative and

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quantitative, um, on the trial.

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So the trial was a six month experiment.

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And what we found, uh, in our business, you know, engagement

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levels, engagement, empowerment, enrichment, enthusiasm, team cohesion,

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those scores went up about 40%.

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Just off the dial.

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Um, and the researchers in New Zealand said they were the

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highest levels they'd ever seen.

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Then stress levels dropped.

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Uh, sick days, halved, uh, more people said they could do the job better

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working four days rather than five.

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We had, you know, we are the Dulles company in New Zealand, trust me.

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I mean, nobody gets up in the morning and says, you know what?

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I think I want to work for a trust company.

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So, but suddenly, of course we then had people who were queuing down the

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street to join the company because it wasn't that the work was any different.

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It was, what it said was that how we approached work was different.

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How we thought about things was different.

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And you know, we had branded cars on the streets and we had,

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I've never seen this before.

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We had our staff coming back and people saying, people are waving

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at the cars and giving a thumb.

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It was completely mad.

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So, because if you think about five years ago, six years ago, this was mad.

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I mean, what, where we've got to in, in six years is quietly extraordinary

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from what was me just sitting there going, you know, how can I improve

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the productivity in my company?

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What, what about we try this?

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And, uh, I think Gartner's now said that, um, it's going

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from radical to routine.

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Is that right?

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I, I, I think that's absolutely right.

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I mean, every, every week, uh, there is another major organization somewhere

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in the world that is shifting to, let's call it reduced hours working.

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'Cause we're quite clear about this.

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What is.

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What is a four day week?

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It's clickbait every week.

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People understand four day week, you know, I would be the richest man in the

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world if I had a dollar for every time somebody said what would it be like to

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have a three day weekend every week?

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I don't know.

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'cause I don't have one, right?

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Nor do my team for the most part.

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What we do is we run this mantra of 180, a hundred, a hundred

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percent pay 80% time, a hundred percent output productivity.

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And how you do that depends on the company.

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So in my own business, we have some people who take a day, some

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people who do two half days.

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Working parents.

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Um, actually it's better for them to work five days, but compressed hours.

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So you've got an ability to handle childcare.

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So what you are seeing is, I think it's an extension of the movement

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towards, you know, flexible working.

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But you've now got, you know, Lamborghini, Volkswagen, Pionneer,

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Unilever, you know, big names.

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Asda have just announced it in the UK.

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Uh, Morrison's are tweaking their version to a nine

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day fortnight, I think.

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I mean, it goes on and on and on.

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Lots and lots of of big companies.

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But also we've got.

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Small companies, and again, it's all over the world.

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We've run pilots in, you know, South Africa as well as, you

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know, the USA, Canada, UK island.

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We've got, uh, one going in Brazil, Portugal, Spain.

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Uh, campaigns in, you know, Sweden, uh, Sweden, Germany, Holland, Belgium.

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I mean, it, it, it literally is now a global movement and I think.

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It's unstoppable.

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Um, I, I, it's, it's quite humbling to think that this

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was a crazy idea six years ago.

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And that, that is the key, that it is 180, a hundred.

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You get a hundred percent of the salary for 80% of the time, as long as

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you're a hundred percent as productive.

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And I think everyone in the uk I think in the UK pilot there

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were 61 and I think virtually all of them, uh, continued.

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Is that right?

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That's right.

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That's right.

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See, what you're doing is you are, you're doing the trade off.

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You know, it's Parkinson's law effectively, isn't it?

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You know, work expands to, to meet the time available.

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So the thesis behind this is to say, right, okay, if we

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can give you the incentive.

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It's normally, the incentive goes to the company.

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If I make you more productive, if I bring in a time management consultant

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or whatever, the company gets all the benefit and me the employer,

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I'm employee, I'm having to work harder, faster, do all of it, but

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I don't get anything for that.

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Whereas this says, you know, actually, you get the benefit of it.

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Now the other thing it does is we ask employees.

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Our, our model says you go to the employees and you say, what is

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it that you would do differently?

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Because it's not about just how I do work, it's how I deal with

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things like personal admin.

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You know, we look at our mobile phones once every five minutes.

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Um, you know, we spend an inordinate amount of time often

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surfing on the internet 'cause it's way more interesting than

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the things that we are doing.

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So you can get rid of personal admin.

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You then do things like meetings, you know, we waste.

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Phenomenal amount of times in pointless meetings.

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So change how you do the meeting protocols.

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You know, the, the, the Microsoft experiment in Japan, five people in

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a meeting, no more than half an hour use Teams and got a 40% improvement in

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productivity off that one thing alone.

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So when you bring all of these things in, and then you lose half

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of your sick days, uh, as well, and often that means that you, you know,

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a, an unplanned absence is often highly, uh, damaging to productivity.

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So if you pull all of these things together, changes in attitude, changes

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in process, and often these process improvements are small things that

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are identified by an individual, what stops me from being productive?

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Then, then you get a lot of improvement in output.

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The other thing it does.

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Is we say to companies, you get your staff to sign up individually to this.

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So the deal is I'll gift you 40 days off a year.

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You have to make sure I get the same level of productivity, but

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the goals are set on a team basis.

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So you do two things happen.

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One.

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You have to have an understanding of productivity.

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I, I am, again, I would be a very rich man if every time I talk about

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this the, if the first question that came back wasn't, well,

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how do you measure productivity?

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And of course the answer is, it means you are not measuring productivity.

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That's at the heart of understand how you measure productivity.

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The second thing is, what it means is that a team member understands that.

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if I waste the time of my colleagues, then actually we

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might all lose our four day week.

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So this is about team cohesion.

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It's about cooperation.

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It's often about, you know, effective communication.

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So we find that once you do it, team cohesion scores, cooperation scores,

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again, go off the dial because suddenly.

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I have a vested interest in what you do, and you have a

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vested interest in what I do.

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And, and you know, I think I was, nobody goes over the top, you know,

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from my military experience, Henry, nobody goes over the top for a

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flag or, or a mission statement.

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I mean, we do these whack a mission statement on board.

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This is what we stand for.

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I, I doubt anybody has ever seen any more productivity

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for a mission statement.

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But if you do go over the top, you go over the top for the person on

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your left and the person on your right, that's always been the case.

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And so what this is about is that shared experience.

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So I come in and I've had a great day off, or I've had more time with

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my kids, or I'm doing a hobby or something and I'm enthusiastic.

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I'm sharing that.

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My colleague has done the same and they are sharing that.

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And so in the environment at work, you get a positivity that you

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otherwise don't get, you know?

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And also who'd have thought that healthier, happier, more rested

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employees would be more productive.

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Absolutely, and I, you know, we were doing the four day week, as

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you know, and we've had our best level of engagement in 30 years

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since we've done the four, uh, since we've done the four day week.

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It's win-win.

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it's a, this is just a loving, basically Henry then isn't?

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But, but tell me more about the, because as, as you say, people

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always talk about billable hours.

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So how would you manage in your billable hours, how do

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you manage to get that to work?

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Well, don't do billable hours.

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You know, why would I bother?

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I mean, what I know is that I'm charging on the value of

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the work that we do, right?

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So if you think about it, I don't know, what can I think?

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You buy a car, right?

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So if, if you've would, do you actually sit there and say, actually, how

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many billable hours is in this car?

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You know, I need to understand, I'm gonna, and you are Tesla and

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you are saying, oh, well let's look at the billable hours.

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You, billable hours is about how long it takes you to do it, right?

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It's, it's, you've gotta be conscious of how the length of time it takes.

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But actually.

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If, if you are the most inefficient factory in the world, you couldn't

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keep racking up the hours it takes you to build that car.

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Your car, the price you would get would be determined by

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the price of the other car.

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So, a lot of this is, as I said, it's laziness.

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I can't work out how productivity is, so what I do is I say,

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well, how long did you take?

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Well, okay, what I did with my, my own law firms who were working for us, I

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said, well, okay, don't bill me for any time after six o'clock at night then,

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because statistically I get better productivity when somebody's fresh

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in the morning, so I want those six minute blocks in the morning, thanks.

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I don't want that six minute block at night when they're tired and

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they're not doing a good job.

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Now, if you ask any legal firm, they will tell you exactly the

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same, that the productivity in those later blocks is not as good.

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Well, why am I paying the same price for it, then?

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So the reality is you find, for example QI think it's Q Legal, one of the

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fastest growing law firms in Canada doesn't do is on a four day week.

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Doesn't do billable hours.

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It's just a mind shift.

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And tell me more about you.

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You, you said about multinationals, like, um, Asda

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and these kind of companies.

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They're, are they, they're doing the four day week

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still with the same salary.

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They are.

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And, and you know, Volkswagen have been doing, actually Volkswagen

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been doing it for quite some time.

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They've been doing it for years.

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Uh, Lamborghini have just announced it.

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There's another major Italian bank has just announced it.

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Um, now you're seeing, uh, grant Thornton down here in New Zealand.

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So one of the, the bigger accounting firms, they've shifted.

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We've got, I think PWC is testing it in, Australia.

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But Australia, there's lots of activity.

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Now we're even seeing that at, uh.

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It's been pushed into the bargaining, uh, collective

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bargaining, uh, engagements now, right the way across the country.

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So I, I think we're gonna see an inflection, you

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know, very, very quickly.

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The reality is, when asked anywhere in the world, 80% people, employees

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say, you know, I need, I'd like more time for the things that I need to do.

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And, and if you think about it, you know, over the last 50 years we

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have, we've got more women into the workplace, we've got a world that's

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forever on, and what we haven't done is hand the benefits of the productivity

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improvements that we've seen, you know, we, because of technology,

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we haven't given any of that back.

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We have merely kept taking and taking and taking.

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And I think that if you look at the levels of burnout, uh, that we are

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seeing, um, you know, the foundation for young Australians, for example, did a,

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a piece of work on under 20 fives and found that that was the most stressed

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generation they'd ever had in Australia.

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Now think about that.

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No war.

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We haven't had World War I, we haven't had World War ii

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and we've got rid of Vietnam.

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And yet this generation was more stressed than the last generations

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that were going through World War I, World War II and Vietnam.

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So it's interesting, you know, we, we have created an environment where

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we're not giving people time, and I think for me, actually getting that

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balance changed is quite important.

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Because there are lots of, of spinoffs, I think when you do this.

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What we see, uh, from our research programs is that, you know, people

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spend more time with their family.

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Now that is better family cohesion, probably better educational outcomes.

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I've got time to read with my kids.

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They cook more.

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Now, that means they've got a better chance to eat healthy fresh food

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rather than grabbing that high salt, high fat, fast food option.

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We find that they obviously commuting drops now, working from home.

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Obviously has impacted that too.

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But if, if you could.

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Do a four day week in the uk.

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It has been calculated, I think, by Henley Business School that that

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would be the equivalent of taking the entire UK private car fleet

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off the road every year as far as carbon emissions are concerned.

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So we talk about, you know, how are we gonna get everybody into electric cars?

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Well, actually, you know what, you don't actually need to, you could have just

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changed how we worked and you'd have massively reduced the carbon emissions.

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Now that's not to stop you buying electric cars, but we could have,

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we can do things in a way that also doesn't impact, you know, productivity

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doesn't require massive amounts of infrastructure expenditure.

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You find also that.

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Health outcomes improve.

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You know, people who work long hours are something like two or three

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times more likely to have a heart attack than somebody who doesn't.

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And if you've got more time off, you've got more time to exercise.

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So I would argue that if you bring in a four day week, you are effectively

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rebalancing a wider society.

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You get all of that for free.

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The company gets.

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Well, you've seen higher levels of output, but the country

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gets all of these benefits.

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And you, and you know, those benefits are material, and I

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think run to the heart of the big questions facing society today.

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So when do you think the inflection point will come?

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Oh, I think we're past an inflection point, right?

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So I, I believe, you know, five years ago we were mad, we were

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mad, we were regarded as mad.

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Hence why I think, you know, Jim Jeffries thought we

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were fair game, you know?

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But now the, we've gone from fringe in terms of discussion to

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mainstream in terms of discussion.

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That's, that's quite clear.

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And all over the world, I was in Saudi Arabia bizarrely just before Christmas,

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talking to organizations there about how they bring in a four day week.

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Specifically, the, the challenge they have is the, the highest level

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of unemployment in any category is graduate educated women, and how

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do you create a working environment that gets them into the workplace?

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Think the four day week might do that.

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So you've got all sorts of reasons all over the world why

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you different countries might think this is a good idea.

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But now we've now got governments introducing it.

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So obviously pilots, government pilots, for example in Spain and

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Portugal, um, Australia, the Senate Select Committee Work and Care has

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said we should do a four day week.

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Um, uh, Shah in the UAE has gone to a four day week.

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Iceland has, has done it.

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And one of my favorites, 'cause their videos are really good,

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is the, um, the city of Golden, um, I think it's Colorado.

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Uh, their police department went to a four day week.

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And, you know, their, their crime solving statistics went up.

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Oh, really?

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Yeah, probably eating less donuts.

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Who knows?

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But

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So, so andrew, you have a major impact on the world of work?

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Look, I'm gonna share this story.

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It's a good anecdote.

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We were doing the Peeking to Paris car rally a few years ago.

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We're in the middle of Russia.

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Phone rings.

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And our guys from Auckland say you've just been name checked by,

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uh, Dmitri and Ber dev, the them, the Prime Minister of Russia.

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He said he's heard about the Perpetual Guardian trial, Andrew Barnes, and

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he thinks it's the future for Russia.

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We went, whoa.

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The phone down, phone ring, phone rings again, and they said, where are you?

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We said, we're in Siberia.

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They said, oh, right, okay, phone down.

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Then they ring back and they said, well, you're going to this city.

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There will be camera crews from Moscow waiting for you when you get in.

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And I did three interviews or four back to back covering in oil.

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And then as we left the country, they announced they

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were drafting legislation.

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Now, okay, Russia is not fashionable these days, right?

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But that was a, you know, a small 300 person business in New Zealand trying

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an experiment that has now led to bills before Congress, bills before several

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states, um, in the UK, obviously SMP, Plaid Cymru, Sinn Féin over in Ireland

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have it as part of their policies.

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It was, part of, it was part of the Corbyn manifesto.

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So, okay.

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It, it's not necessarily all, both sides of the house, but it is getting that.

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Uh, Australia, both sides of the house have had, uh, a view

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that they should bring it in.

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And you're seeing it in everywhere else.

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Did I ever, in my wildest dreams think that I was gonna be doing this?

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And I would be.

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Now, we have a global audience, we think is now about five

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and a half billion people.

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We've spoken to companies, media, everything in about 120

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countries, 125 countries worldwide.

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And we've been in the Forbes Fast 50, the Time top 50.

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It's not bad for a, not-for-profit little organization 'cause we do this,

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because, you know, Henry, um, you don't get many chances to change the world.

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And for better or for worse, we've been given the chance to change the world.

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We're on a, we have this own internal goal on, on a campaign to, to

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create a million years of free time.

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Now, it's quite humbling when even one of your own employees comes

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in and, and I, you know, and tells what they've done and then cries,

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because they never thought we could give them something like this.

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it's so positive for everybody.

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I mean, everybody wins.

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Organizations win, society wins, individuals win.

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Families win.

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Why the hell wouldn't we do it?

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And, and what I get, I get intrigued about is all too often people say,

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well, you know, it's the usual reaction.

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You're sitting in a room and somebody says, what do you do?

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And you say, well, I'm here to talk about the footy week.

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And they stare off into the middle distance for a bit.

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And they go, ah, well it wouldn't work in, they thought about an

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industry will prove it'll not work.

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My favorite, the favorite was I was in in Wellington in MP's office,

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and the guy stares in the middle of difference now, and he said,

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well, it wouldn't work in dairy.

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And I said, well, why wouldn't it work in dairy?

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He said, well, cows need milking twice a day.

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I so liked the crew quote.

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I put it as a chapter in the book.

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Ironically, there is now a piece of kit in New Zealand called Holter, that

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means you can sit in your living room with your mobile phone program, your

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cows going to the milking shed being milked and back out to the pasture.

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So yes, you can do it in dairy.

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You just gotta rethink how you,

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Okay.

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Well, Andrew, that's been great, but can you tell me your three

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tips for a happy workplace?

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well, uh, it would be remiss of me if I didn't start off

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and say the obvious one.

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It's gotta have four days.

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I mean, it works, right?

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So, so, so do that.

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Uh, the second one, um, now I, I discovered this when I, I first

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took over my company that nobody is happy if your office roof's

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letting rain onto computers.

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So I do think second tip is to make sure that your, your, your,

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your buildings are watertight.

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Just saying.

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But the, the third one, um, is a thing I did right in the get

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go when I, I took over Perpetual Guardian, which were two very broken

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companies at the time, is I used art.

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So I'm a great believer that art, um, that is my, my case,

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modern art, um, is challenging and at the same time uplifting.

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And so what we do is all of our offices, whenever we open them,

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whenever we're we're building something else, is that we find

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great art and we put it on the walls.

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Take your mission statement down, and put a challenging piece of art up.

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Well, thank you Andrew.

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You have definitely made a difference in the world.

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Thanks, Henry.

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Good to talk.

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What an interesting conversation,

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indeed.

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Um, and he was making me smile.

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I think even his point about having a rainproof, a rain tight building.

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Yeah, but, you know, look at the schools at the moment.

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You know, they're, they're, yeah, they're suffering.

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Um, but I really liked his point about, you know, the art, the creativeness, you

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know, having great art in his buildings, you know, 'cause sometimes that's

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the art also provides a challenge.

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And it just reminded me of Happy because we've got so many different

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expressions, you know, of where we use art to tell stories and also

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challenge leadership concepts.

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So, yeah, I really agree.

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So.

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What came up for you, Henry?

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Well, the key point of the four day week is 100, 80, 100, as he

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talked about, which is you get a hundred percent of the salary for

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80% of the time, as long as you are a hundred percent as productive.

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And in, in the UK pilots, you know, of 61 companies,

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56 have continued doing it.

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And you know, I went, I did actually go to university with Andrew Barnes.

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And I never thought he would do a global, you know, sensation.

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He would do, he would, he would, he would do anything like that, you know.

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But, um, yeah, he's, he's absolutely done that.

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Yeah, it just goes to show how we all can make a difference, you

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know, no matter how big or small.

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So, good on Andrew.

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And let me, let me tell you first of all about our apprenticeship program.

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The level three team leader, the level five operation director, and

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level seven, uh, senior leader.

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And these don't cost you very much at all.

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Because if you've got the apprenticeship levy, which is, uh, if you've got

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more than 3 million in salary, you, you pay for it from that.

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And, uh, the government funds 95% of it.

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So on the, the, uh, level three team leader, you'll only pay 225

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pounds for a full 14 month program.

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there's a bargain.

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It's an absolute bargain.

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So check that out.

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Check it out with, uh, with anybody at Happy.

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Um, and Maureen over to you.

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Um, before we go with the apprenticeship, remember we have a

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special, um, program as well called the Global Majority Program because

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this is about actually, you know, increasing the diversity at the

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top level of senior management.

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So, check that out on our website.

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And saying that you can find out more information on happy.co.uk

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and you can find out about our podcast there as well.

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But please remember to subscribe, to subscribe, shall I say.,

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Yes, do do indeed.

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Subscribe to podcast.

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What do we keep on doing?

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Creating joy at work, work

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at work,

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