Co-management is a radical and fair way to run a company. One company’s approach of having no hierarchy and no bosses has allowed for a more collaborative and communicative environment, where teams can solve problems together.
Matt Perez is the co-founder of Nearsoft, a software company that practices co-management. Instead of having bosses, they have leadership teams that solve problems and make decisions. They also have a unique approach to dealing with poor performance before it comes an issue.
Matt’s tip for a happier workplace
Workplace happiness involves being true to oneself and respecting others’ boundaries. By finding common ground, differences can be resolved, creating a more collaborative environment. Face-to-face conversations are especially effective in resolving issues and finding common ground.
Links
- Connect with Matt via LinkedIn
- Radical Companies: Organized for Success Without Bosses or Employees – Matt’s book
- Maverick: The Success Story Behind the World’s Most Unusual Workshop, by Ricardo Semler
Transcript
Welcome to this edition of the Happy Manifesto podcast, and today
Speaker:we've got Matt Perez of Nearsoft, a self-managing organization.
Speaker:I'm Henry Stewart.
Speaker:And I'm more Egbe.
Speaker:And what's been joyful for you
Speaker:Oh my gosh.
Speaker:This may not sound like it's a big thing, but it's a big thing to me, Henry.
Speaker:It's big.
Speaker:Big, big, big.
Speaker:Big.
Speaker:I managed to fix a puncture tire for my bike.
Speaker:Excellent.
Speaker:Maureen.
Speaker:Yes, yes.
Speaker:You know that since I was a little kid, when I had my first bike, I stopped riding
Speaker:my bike because I couldn't fix a puncture
Speaker:Oh really?
Speaker:Totally, totally.
Speaker:So, um, Yes, I fixed that puncture.
Speaker:I found out where the hole was.
Speaker:I'd done the whole service, Henry, I did.
Speaker:I had my brother watching over me who was just touching as I gleave
Speaker:excitement, so how well I was doing.
Speaker:Excellent, excellent.
Speaker:And what's been joyful for me is the Happy Check survey at Happy, because
Speaker:we've, uh, carried this out for 27 years and this was the highest score ever.
Speaker:the previous best was August, 2001, but we beat that.
Speaker:what?
Speaker:What schools, Henry, do you know for it?
Speaker:the overall score was 86.7%, but remember that we don't just go
Speaker:for good and excellent, we go for fantastic as the, as the highest score.
Speaker:because we do have fantastic people at Happy,
Speaker:We do Indeed.
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:And uh, one of the key, I think one of the key elements is,
Speaker:has been the four day week.
Speaker:because there were a lot of people that commented on that, cuz we've
Speaker:done the four day week for a full year, and people are, are really,
Speaker:are really enjoying it, aren't they?
Speaker:Well, it's, that's amazing how quickly time goes.
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:And they've, of course, point of the four day week is 180, a hundred, isn't it?
Speaker:Um, which is you get a hundred percent of the salary for 80% of the hours as long as
Speaker:you are a hundred percent as productive.
Speaker:Shall just tell you some of the comments that people made about the four day?
Speaker:The best bit is having a day to do things for me, like activities,
Speaker:life admin, and just chill time.
Speaker:I have never felt so consistently fresh and full of energy starting the week.
Speaker:Also the freedom it gives me, both in terms of structuring my day and working
Speaker:times, but also getting chores Owens done and without impacting the ability
Speaker:to switch off and enjoy the weekend.
Speaker:Or someone just wanted, just have I have more time with my
Speaker:Oh, lovely.
Speaker:That's what joy looks like.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Anyway, what been happy for you?
Speaker:Okay, so, um, oh yeah, just to share a thought or, um, an idea.
Speaker:And I was just thinking, um, about dreams, things that I would like to do
Speaker:and what the workplace allows me to do.
Speaker:Um, and that is fulfilling my personal development.
Speaker:And one of the things, it's just to share one of the things that we do at Happy
Speaker:and, um, other, other organizations do similar things, but at Happy we pro, um,
Speaker:we're given developments, money, you know.
Speaker:So we're given money so that we can choose what it is that we wanna do with it.
Speaker:And I have decided that I want to read more.
Speaker:So I am going to, you know, take a me a membership, Audible books.
Speaker:But the thing about it is, it's like how do organizations help
Speaker:people develop themselves in areas that they want to be developed?
Speaker:And it doesn't necessarily have to be connected to their job,
Speaker:their role, or the organization.
Speaker:Exactly.
Speaker:Exactly.
Speaker:So which Audible books are you going to buy?
Speaker:I don't know.
Speaker:The choice.
Speaker:choice, that's the thing, the choice.
Speaker:So I'm gonna be smart about it.
Speaker:I'm gonna have something, one that is relaxing and then one that's around, I
Speaker:have a confidence building and so on.
Speaker:Cause I'm, I'm really keen about that
Speaker:Okay, well, we'll hear from you later about those.
Speaker:So now over to Matt Perez.
Speaker:Hi Matt.
Speaker:It's so great to have you here on the podcast.
Speaker:So we'd like to get to know you more about you.
Speaker:So can you tell us more about you, about the business that you're in?
Speaker:About Nearsoft?
Speaker:sure.
Speaker:So, uh, I'm an old man.
Speaker:I'm, uh,
Speaker:No.
Speaker:ancient.
Speaker:And um, but in 2007 When I was 55, I started a company called
Speaker:Nearsoft, and then soon thereafter I found, oh, we found each other.
Speaker:My partner and I found each other.
Speaker:He had a small company in Mexico.
Speaker:I had a smaller company here in the US and we merged in 2007.
Speaker:And the company was co-managed from day one.
Speaker:Meaning there was no bosses, there was no hierarchy, none of that stuff.
Speaker:And it grew to about 300 people.
Speaker:When in 2017 we sold it to another company, which eventually became Encora.
Speaker:The whole premise of the company was, okay, India's way over there
Speaker:on the other side of the world.
Speaker:People literally get up when we go to sleep and we get up when we go to sleep.
Speaker:Wouldn't it be better to have developers here in the same time zone?
Speaker:Nearsoft was a, a co-managing organization.
Speaker:What, what does co-managing mean?
Speaker:So co co-management, uh, more popularly known as, uh, self-management.
Speaker:And the, and the main thing is that there's no.
Speaker:There's no hierarchy.
Speaker:There's nobody on top and nobody in the bottom.
Speaker:that's so fascinating because as you said, right at the beginning, at the start
Speaker:of the business, there were no bosses.
Speaker:So normally, I mean, at the moment we are talking about self-management, but
Speaker:people are coming from management to self-management and you started with
Speaker:that, no hierarchy from the beginnings.
Speaker:So what was the thought process?
Speaker:How did that come about?
Speaker:So first of all, the difference between co-management and self-management is
Speaker:that, we realize that there's no self, the company doesn't manage itself, The company
Speaker:doesn't exist without the people in it.
Speaker:So what do we do?
Speaker:Oh, right now we're co-managing the space, You're not my boss.
Speaker:I'm not your boss.
Speaker:And that kind of thing.
Speaker:We're co-managing the space.
Speaker:When she talks, I shut up and when I talk, shut up and, and like that.
Speaker:And we both all stop.
Speaker:You ask a question to motivate the thing.
Speaker:I have worked in corporate all my life, and I knew the game of, you know,
Speaker:getting ahead and pushing the other guys to the side and all this stuff,
Speaker:but I knew how, useless that was and how, how, um, it just, it barely worked.
Speaker:And so I didn't want titles.
Speaker:I, I didn't, I was at 55, I guess I was old enough that I retired titles.
Speaker:And um, my partner said it's a thing, uh, significant thing, thing.
Speaker:He said, um, I wanted to build a company that works for everybody.
Speaker:And I said, that's it, that's what we want to also.
Speaker:And so we started with that approach.
Speaker:But, you know, we were like blind boing in the dark.
Speaker:And then my son, uh, my oldest son read a book by Ricardo Semler.
Speaker:Oh, yes,
Speaker:That's one of Henry's favorites.
Speaker:And he said, you gotta read this.
Speaker:And I said, yeah, yeah.
Speaker:I said, no, you gotta read this.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:And I started reading it and reading it and reading it.
Speaker:And I read it from beginning to end, but about 10 pages
Speaker:into it, it didn't take long.
Speaker:I told my partner, you gotta read this.
Speaker:But he read it in one city.
Speaker:And next day he, he sides bloated and all this stuff.
Speaker:And he said, wow, that's, that was different.
Speaker:That was really different.
Speaker:And for listeners, that book is Maverick by Ricardo Semler, and I'd say it's
Speaker:the best business book ever written apart, apart from Matt's and mine.
Speaker:So do you still implement those learnings in the business today?
Speaker:Is there anything like
Speaker:okay.
Speaker:I'm make a distinction between business and company.
Speaker:and company.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:So a business is an organization with one metric, money, So if you make more money,
Speaker:you're ex exciting growing business.
Speaker:If you make less money, you're a bum.
Speaker:Company comes from the Latin co pain, pain being bread and co meeting together.
Speaker:And um, these are people who broke bread together.
Speaker:but I thought that company spoke more to what I wanted to say, which was people
Speaker:working together, coal management, coal company com, stuff like that.
Speaker:So, to answer your question, we did apply to the business.
Speaker:This gave more of a, a structure.
Speaker:Some things we didn't do, we didn't follow the, um, the thing we did about salaries.
Speaker:That was a big mistake, but we didn't do it.
Speaker:but most everything else we did.
Speaker:The infant vacations, which in Mexico you have to have two weeks vacation if you
Speaker:have certain seniority and three weeks vacation, if you have certain seniority.
Speaker:but the whole idea is that people could take time off and they
Speaker:would know when to take them off.
Speaker:And, um, I mean, people went to work from their houses or went to work
Speaker:from their, their parents' houses.
Speaker:Mexico's more of a family oriented thing and the kids live with their
Speaker:parents until they get married and so they're very attached to
Speaker:their families and their cousins and their friends and stuff like that.
Speaker:And we figured people would know better than anybody who were to
Speaker:go work, rather than us saying.
Speaker:Having said that, we had a very nice office just south of, uh, Arizona.
Speaker:and so, One of the things that we did there is we had a kitchen.
Speaker:And my partner did that in the zone.
Speaker:I, I was very fast from the building and um, he said, no, that way you have
Speaker:to go down and do things together.
Speaker:And I thought that was brilliant.
Speaker:And again, in Mexico is, is very common to make food for one another.
Speaker:So people bring all the groceries and cooked there.
Speaker:And anybody will come in and and go, Hey, you want some tamales or whatever?
Speaker:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker:I'll have some, well, there's a little bit left and a little bit of this and a
Speaker:little bit of that, and they feed you.
Speaker:And that was very good at, at getting people that normally wouldn't talk or, or
Speaker:get together whatever, to come together.
Speaker:And, uh, we have lots of marriages and, people dating and, and stuff like that.
Speaker:So tell us about some of the details.
Speaker:So you didn't have bosses, but you had leadership teams.
Speaker:No leadership team is, basically, uh, I wanna change something.
Speaker:I noticed that there are three glasses broken in the door.
Speaker:And again, the heat does funny things with glass.
Speaker:And it hasn't been fixed for a week, and I'm I want it fixed.
Speaker:So I announced in, in over email that I'm gonna start a
Speaker:leadership team to fix the windows.
Speaker:And people respond and say, yeah, I wanna be part of that, or whatever.
Speaker:Another one that we had that was very significant is we had, money
Speaker:distribution at the end of the year.
Speaker:So we took a certain percentage to next year, and that was, that
Speaker:was the decision that we make.
Speaker:my partner and I.
Speaker:But the rest was the dispute.
Speaker:And my partner had a very, Complex formula is that, that's a kind way word to say.
Speaker:And it got to the point where nobody understood it.
Speaker:Then this guy announced to the world that he, he wanted to understand the formula.
Speaker:And, uh, he announced it to a world.
Speaker:And he shows up, I think about nine people in the end.
Speaker:So from that point on, it's a group thing.
Speaker:And so they first came to me.
Speaker:He said, Hey, what do you think if we do that?
Speaker:And, and the thing that I learned by then was to ask, Are you asking for permission
Speaker:or are you asking for an opinion?
Speaker:If you asking for permission, the, the word is not, no, you can't do it.
Speaker:Whatever it is, you can't do it.
Speaker:Now, if you're asking for my opinion, I think you should talk to the
Speaker:people that get affected by this,
Speaker:Eventually they came up with something that people could understand.
Speaker:A few people didn't buy into it.
Speaker:but again, it's consent, it's not consensus.
Speaker:We don't all have to agree.
Speaker:We have to agree at least to try it out and live with it.
Speaker:So how do you get to that point?
Speaker:Because if you have a few people who disagree, how do you get to that
Speaker:point to know what you're gonna do?
Speaker:What is the
Speaker:So, so the whole process is facing this, your mouth and your ears.
Speaker:You have a conversation with her and you explain what you're gonna do.
Speaker:And they say no, because my mother and my dog and my sister, you
Speaker:know, they get their anxieties up.
Speaker:And then they say No, because I, I spent six years in school and
Speaker:you didn't, and blah, blah, blah.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:So can you live with it where we're gonna do it?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So anybody can stand up and say, I want to create a leadership team?
Speaker:Anybody can, identify a problem and answer an email, I'm gonna solve it.
Speaker:The, the usual thing is, the way this guy did it was, I don't understand the whole
Speaker:bonus thing, and I want to understand it.
Speaker:And then people said, oh, I want to, I don't understand it either.
Speaker:I want to join you on it.
Speaker:And it was too many people.
Speaker:It was a bunch of people.
Speaker:So that tells you that the problem was widespread.
Speaker:It wasn't one or two, people that weren't, unhappy.
Speaker:It was widespread.
Speaker:But he couldn't handle everybody.
Speaker:So he came to me and said How many people should I have?
Speaker:I go are you asking for permission or asking for my opinion?
Speaker:And they said, look, I don't know how to handle more 60 people.
Speaker:But whatever worked for you.
Speaker:So he ended up with nine and that was it.
Speaker:From that point on, he's not the leader, he's not the boss.
Speaker:He's the guy that brought everybody together.
Speaker:And people voice their opinions and they come with with ideas.
Speaker:And so they came up with these solutions.
Speaker:and eventually one of the guys told me afterwards.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:The simpler we made it, the easier it got.
Speaker:And it came very with a very simple solution, divide by n.
Speaker:So it's just a hundred dollars and a hundred people.
Speaker:Everybody gets a dollar.
Speaker:That's it.
Speaker:As simple as it gets.
Speaker:Now, money, money's the funny thing and, and people have with it and
Speaker:stuff like that, but most people would say, yeah, we can live with
Speaker:that for a couple years, because it was so simple, you could trust it.
Speaker:So that's the most significant, decision that was made.
Speaker:But there were many others, and I mean, from trivial to the very soic,
Speaker:you know, everything in between.
Speaker:At one point they wanted to, um, bring in new games into, we have a game room
Speaker:in one of the buildings and they wanted, uh, new games and stuff like that.
Speaker:And, and there was a big argument.
Speaker:And, and, and so they formed in the game room, they form a game
Speaker:Leadership team.
Speaker:Oh.
Speaker:And, uh, and somebody el not me, somebody else said, oh, you have to announce that.
Speaker:Oh, nobody cares.
Speaker:You have to announce that.
Speaker:And so they announced that.
Speaker:Nobody care.
Speaker:And that's what they made the decision by talking.
Speaker:And, and you get to talk and you get to say your, bring
Speaker:your demons out, so to speak.
Speaker:And it's very important to people.
Speaker:And normally we react to the demons and we learn to not react to the demons.
Speaker:That, that's the nice thing about a smaller team.
Speaker:It's very hard to call somebody an idiot when he sitting across from you.
Speaker:So, so if you don't have bosses, your co-managing workspace, how
Speaker:do you deal with poor performance?
Speaker:I don't the team does.
Speaker:So, we do programming mostly.
Speaker:And, um, if somebody's not doing check-ins, which is the way that you track
Speaker:what people are doing or, doing too many check-ins, you have a conversation with
Speaker:'em, and if they refuse to talk or, you know, they, they're just not part of the
Speaker:team or whatever, then not necessarily the whole team, but some of the people
Speaker:on the team have a conversation with 'em.
Speaker:Hey, what's wrong with you?
Speaker:How come you're doing so many?
Speaker:And oftentimes people are scared to ask.
Speaker:We, both him and I are very good at saying, well, I don't know that.
Speaker:How do you do it?
Speaker:How, how does that work?
Speaker:How does that, and that's kind of pervaded their organizations,
Speaker:you know, where you can say it.
Speaker:And, people ask all kinds of questions in Slack and stuff like that.
Speaker:But some people, particularly coming from the outside, are
Speaker:afraid of asking questions.
Speaker:And sometimes that that conversation, starts to break that.
Speaker:You know, they, they latch onto one or two and, but it starts to
Speaker:break that process of being afraid.
Speaker:And that's a question, you know, and, we can solve the problem
Speaker:before you have to, check it in, you know, a hundred times or whatever.
Speaker:if on the other hand, okay, I'll give you a case.
Speaker:There was a case of a guy early on before, we had a lot of things in place
Speaker:that very much believed in a company and Microsoft shall remain nameless here.
Speaker:And, uh, if, if it wasn't Microsoft, it was gross.
Speaker:The first thing got together, talk to him.
Speaker:And initially he said, you know what?
Speaker:We don't want you on the team.
Speaker:And he was out of the scene.
Speaker:Now he's stayed in the company, and another team took him on and, uh, I
Speaker:grumbled and, and, but it doesn't matter.
Speaker:Another team took him on.
Speaker:And, and about a mo a couple of months later he was out.
Speaker:And then a third person took him on as an assistant or something
Speaker:because he was a smart guy.
Speaker:He was a very smart guy and very good at solving problems.
Speaker:But didn't, he couldn't handle.
Speaker:At one point he said, no, you gotta leave.
Speaker:And he told him, you gotta leave the company.
Speaker:So it is not the I fire you and you're gone and you get your siren, off you go.
Speaker:It's a slower process, but I, I think it's a more fair process because
Speaker:not only, If he fails three times to join the team, he's gotta realize
Speaker:whether he realize or not he's failing at join the team, not the smarts.
Speaker:He is joining the team.
Speaker:But not only that, the group learns, here's an example of
Speaker:somebody who can't join the team.
Speaker:Because it is gotta be a learning thing for both parties.
Speaker:And so, that was, that was one case.
Speaker:There've been the opposite.
Speaker:There's been people that were bumped outta one team, taken up by another
Speaker:team and done very well in there.
Speaker:I only fired one person early on, And it's because the team didn't
Speaker:dare tell him and I didn't know how to tell him, to tell him and stuff.
Speaker:So I became the big man in the middle.
Speaker:And I walked up with this guy up and down the hallway and when we
Speaker:came back I told the fine people in front of him, I said, he's out.
Speaker:In, in Mexico, you have to liquidate people.
Speaker:Not liquidate people, but
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:You know, you have to give him a month for a year.
Speaker:It is a severance formula meal.
Speaker:And we could hardly afford at that time.
Speaker:And my partner said, no, no, because we can't afford it, I said
Speaker:we can't afford to keep him here.
Speaker:The team doesn't wanna, but they don't know how to push him out.
Speaker:so saying that because everything, and I love the whole concept of, company
Speaker:people together, everyone making the decisions, you know, and stepping up.
Speaker:What would be your advice to anybody that wanted to set the same values
Speaker:that your company has in terms of self-managing and how would you encourage
Speaker:people to talk more and listen more?
Speaker:Get started, and you know, you can, there are books that you can read.
Speaker:There are people you can, uh, contact or whatever, for support.
Speaker:But the thing is to get started.
Speaker:If you really believe a happier company and a better company, by bringing
Speaker:everybody in and giving everybody's opinion, and that was hard, hard for me.
Speaker:I had been a boss for 30 plus years before that.
Speaker:So it was very hard not to give orders and say, no.
Speaker:And somebody would tell me, Hey, you're being an asshole and stuff like that.
Speaker:So I learned over time to not say no, but say, well, maybe not, but it's still hard.
Speaker:So If you believe that you can make a better company that way, get started.
Speaker:You're gonna make mistakes guaranteed.
Speaker:But get started.
Speaker:And there's no formula that applies from what we did to
Speaker:what somebody else would do.
Speaker:There are guidelines that I can give you, and like I said, Maverick to this day is
Speaker:a very good book in terms of guidelines.
Speaker:your, your book is also good, Matt, Radical Companies.
Speaker:Is, is Matt's book.
Speaker:And one thing I particularly like about, uh, I love the quote.
Speaker:Don't let an obsession with arbitrary financial targets
Speaker:take presence over people's joy.
Speaker:And not joy, like at least have a party joy.
Speaker:But, It's the feel good kind of joy is the, is the ability to, to make
Speaker:your own decisions and stuff like that, is the ability to, to speak to
Speaker:anybody in the company about anything.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And not being your cuic or you're a cog in the machine.
Speaker:If you try to get outta there, we hammer you back into it.
Speaker:No, I, I mean there are people that have been programmers ended
Speaker:up in people development and people have gravitated to different
Speaker:places because they've spoken up.
Speaker:There are people that I bet want to gravitate to other
Speaker:places and don't dare say it,
Speaker:So, the system that we live in today, we're fish, fishing, water.
Speaker:Okay, and we don't see it.
Speaker:We don't see it.
Speaker:So we, you know, water?
Speaker:What the heck is that?
Speaker:It's, we go up, we go down, we go sideways, we breathe.
Speaker:Yeah, but that's water.
Speaker:No, no, no.
Speaker:don't, don't, don't grab that shit.
Speaker:No, no.
Speaker:I, We live in a system like that and we call it fiat.
Speaker:meaning, because I say so.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:You guys change processions.
Speaker:Why?
Speaker:Because I say so.
Speaker:And a lot of people try to change aspects of that system.
Speaker:You know, the, the climate change is one thing.
Speaker:The, the, the women's thing is another thing.
Speaker:And you know, it gets better.
Speaker:It's, there's been progress.
Speaker:It's not, we're not at the inter 18th century anymore,
Speaker:but it's still the system.
Speaker:It's still somebody at top and somebody the bottom.
Speaker:Very few people at the top, lots of people at the bottom.
Speaker:Lots of people at the bottom.
Speaker:So we've gotta come to a close now, but, what I generally ask is your three top
Speaker:tips for creating a happy workplace.
Speaker:But I think you've got a different take on that, haven't you?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Happiness to me, like I said, it's not a party and less soul
Speaker:smile and stuff like that.
Speaker:It is more of, of having that space to be more yourself and
Speaker:it's, it's not an infinite space.
Speaker:It is limited by what the other people, the other people's
Speaker:spaces and stuff like that.
Speaker:But when you find an area of common ground between me and, and Maureen
Speaker:for example, we figure out that if there are differences, we figure out
Speaker:the differences or commonalities.
Speaker:And it's a lot easier for people face to face to resolve those issues
Speaker:and to have that conversation.
Speaker:Matt, that's been brilliant.
Speaker:Yeah, it been great.
Speaker:and as, as we say, his book is Radical Companies, check it out
Speaker:wherever you find your books.
Speaker:thank you very much.
Speaker:Thank you.
Speaker:When I think about the whole culture of it all, it's about company.
Speaker:You know, when you made that distinction between business and company, that it's
Speaker:about everybody, company coming together, the importance that everybody had a
Speaker:voice, and were part of the company.
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:And this whole co-managing thing, um, the idea, as you said, you don't have bosses.
Speaker:and it sounds like that the decisions are made by the leadership teams.
Speaker:And that's, and that's the company, that's
Speaker:That's everybody.
Speaker:So you can just set step up and say, I want to, you know,
Speaker:do something about this.
Speaker:And just
Speaker:make it happen.
Speaker:That's it.
Speaker:Cuz he has no rules, So I'm still getting my head around that.
Speaker:but the only way to, as he said, to make to see whether it
Speaker:can work is just by doing it.
Speaker:Cuz there is no script.
Speaker:And of course, consent rather than consensus.
Speaker:Which is, which is a big thing in the self-managing organizations, but, um,
Speaker:that, that whole idea that you don't need everyone's consensus, you just
Speaker:need to make sure they give consent.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:so yeah, Right.
Speaker:well, first of all, um, he spoke about Ricardo, and I know that you love that
Speaker:Oh, I do.
Speaker:I love Maverick.
Speaker:All right.
Speaker:So go check out the books, check out our other episodes on, the Happy Manifesto.
Speaker:And if you wanna leave a comment, please do so on your, whatever you use, Spotify
Speaker:or whatever podcast platform you use.
Speaker:Leave a comment, let us know what you think.
Speaker:And I think, what's the strap line, Henry?
Speaker:Creating joy at work.