Episode 9 – Be kind, break rules – with Sarah Pugh

Henry: 00:00:00

Welcome to the Happy Manifesto podcast.

Henry: 00:00:03

I'm Henry Stewart.

Maureen: 00:00:04

And I'm Maureen Egbe.

Henry: 00:00:05

Excellent.

Henry: 00:00:06

And today we have Sarah Pugh, the Chief executive of Whizz-Kidz and a real believer in happy workplaces.

Maureen: 00:00:14

We've had her at some of our, um, our conferences, haven't we?

Henry: 00:00:18

We have indeed.

Henry: 00:00:19

She, she shared 15 tips for creating a happy charity.

Maureen: 00:00:23

15 tips already.

Maureen: 00:00:24

Okay.

Maureen: 00:00:24

This is gonna be good.

Henry: 00:00:25

This is gonna be good.

Henry: 00:00:26

So tell me what, what makes you joyful at the moment?

Maureen: 00:00:29

At the moment, what makes me joyful is that I'm still, I.

Maureen: 00:00:33

Smiling and gleeing from attending a show, um, with a group of friends.

Maureen: 00:00:39

We went out and we went to see Johannas.

Maureen: 00:00:42

So have you ever watched Come Dancing

Henry: 00:00:44

No, no, I've, I haven't, I'm afraid

Maureen: 00:00:46

You must be the only one.

Henry: 00:00:48

I've watched it once or twice, but not really.

Maureen: 00:00:50

There you go.

Henry: 00:00:51

Yeah.

Maureen: 00:00:52

But Strictly Come Dancing in fabulous, and they have this awesome dancer called Johannes from South Africa.

Maureen: 00:00:58

And he was, he is one of the first, um, people who has dance with same sex and same sex couple.

Maureen: 00:01:08

And he's got his own show.

Maureen: 00:01:10

Um, he's traveling around, he's touring around, so it was brilliant to go and watch him dance and share his story.

Henry: 00:01:16

Well, I have almost finished my new book, um, and that's given me real joy.

Henry: 00:01:23

Um, and it's called Creating Joy at Work 501, uh, ideas to create happy workplaces, and it's, it's basically the book I want.

Henry: 00:01:36

I wanted other people to create because it's so many ideas about how you build trust and freedom.

Henry: 00:01:42

You celebrate mistakes, you do all sorts of things, uh, like that you believe the best of people.

Henry: 00:01:48

Um, and it's got all those tips and so I'm really looking forward to getting it out there.

Maureen: 00:01:54

Oh, well I'm excited for it to go for, to get it out there, and I have to admit that I took a little sneak peek it looks like I know, I It looks like it's, it's good show ideas.

Maureen: 00:02:05

I love it.

Henry: 00:02:05

Yes.

Henry: 00:02:06

And your, your, uh, idea for happy nickable?

Maureen: 00:02:10

I just recently had a snapshot meeting with one of my people.

Maureen: 00:02:16

So snapshot meetings are basically they replace, um, replace appraisals.

Maureen: 00:02:21

So, you know, with appraisals, people, managers will turn up and we are looking at what's not working and giving targets where snapshots is led by your person, you know.

Maureen: 00:02:32

So daily they, they tell you about what's gone, um, what's gone well, reflecting on different things that's gone on, and they set their own targets for themselves.

Maureen: 00:02:42

So we have a radical disruption, so we'll talk about that another time.

Maureen: 00:02:45

Radical

Henry: 00:02:45

Yeah.

Henry: 00:02:46

That's already a happy, a happy nickable.

Maureen: 00:02:48

So what is great about this is that rather than I'm leading it, as I said, as my person that's leading it, and it's about coaching, especially when we talk about challenges.

Maureen: 00:02:58

So my tip is, is that rather than looking at just having managers, let your managers be coaches.

Maureen: 00:03:04

So it helps bring out the best in your, with your person, your colleague, your team member,

Henry: 00:03:10

Okay, so what you do with your people is you listen and you, you build their confidence and you help 'em find their own solutions.

Henry: 00:03:16

Is that right?

Maureen: 00:03:16

That's what coaching's all about.

Maureen: 00:03:18

It is about listening, asking those questions so that that person can dig deeper, and really encouraging them to actually find and know what they need to do and how they're gonna do it, rather than me telling,

Henry: 00:03:31

Okay, well, my, my happy nickable is transparent salaries.

Henry: 00:03:36

So at Happy all our salaries are in little spreadsheet, all of them, all the way back to whenever somebody was first employed, um, uh, in little spreadsheet so that everybody can find out what angry else is earning.

Henry: 00:03:51

We do a survey on it, um, every, every year.

Henry: 00:03:53

And we find at least 85% say they really appreciate having access to those salaries.

Maureen: 00:03:59

I find it really good because also, um, again, we have the opportunity to apply for a salary, raise and then we can see what's going on.

Maureen: 00:04:10

And also, um, it's, it's.

Maureen: 00:04:13

Just good to be honest and upfront about how, what the salaries look like,

Henry: 00:04:17

Yeah.

Henry: 00:04:18

I often ask people why they don't make salaries open, and you know what they say?

Henry: 00:04:23

They say, cuz us salaries aren't fair.

Henry: 00:04:25

That's what most people say.

Henry: 00:04:26

And um, of course the, the benefit of having transparent salaries is they have to be fair

Maureen: 00:04:32

I mean on our spreadsheet we actually talk about, you know, when there has been a raise, you know the reasons for the raises so people are clear why people are being paid a certain salary as well, so.

Henry: 00:04:42

Absolutely.

Henry: 00:04:43

Okay, so now on to Sarah Pugh.

Sarah: 00:04:48

So I started at Heart of Kent Hospice back in 2015, and I've always felt it's so important to nurture colleagues and to create an environment where people can be their very best, and had started to do some things there and then, I read your book, Henry, and it really inspired me to think, um, beyond what I was doing at that time, um, and to really push, um, push boundaries in terms of what we could do.

Sarah: 00:05:20

And I really fundamentally believe that.

Sarah: 00:05:22

People have to be happy to be productive and not productive, to be happy.

Sarah: 00:05:26

Um, so you have to start with culture.

Sarah: 00:05:28

You have to create a culture in which people can be the best.

Sarah: 00:05:32

Um, and so that was the journey that we went on at the hospice.

Sarah: 00:05:37

Um, and it, it really, for me was quite transformational, I think, in, in seeing the difference that you can make, and actually the productivity that can come from creating the right environment for people to prosper in.

Sarah: 00:05:51

Uh, I always, there's a quote that I love by Richard Branson, which was, um, is people are no different from flowers.

Sarah: 00:05:57

If you water them, they flourish.

Sarah: 00:05:59

If you are not nice to them, they shrink.

Sarah: 00:06:01

And I think that is

Maureen: 00:06:03

Yeah, it really is.

Maureen: 00:06:06

So you talked about like pushing boundaries.

Maureen: 00:06:08

What would you say was like that the first like boundary that you really want to tackle?

Sarah: 00:06:12

One of the first things that was quite, I guess, quite mind blowing, having been in um, organizations for years, um, was actually getting rid of appraisals.

Sarah: 00:06:23

Um, so, um, banishing the things that get in the way Um, we're kind of principle around that and having long discussions with, with the leadership team, um, and with the heads of department internally and saying, we don't need to do it this way.

Sarah: 00:06:41

Um, but given that people have been institutionalized for years in the process of I s I write my appraisal, I sit down, I have an hour long meeting, it's terrible, um, and then we file it and then everyone's done their job and the manager has to stress about writing up all these appraisals, um, and then we just put that away and job done, um, for another year and hopefully we all get through tax.

Sarah: 00:07:05

We moved to a, a snapshot process where we had, we had snapshots every four months.

Sarah: 00:07:11

And they were built on a coaching culture and that they were designed to be maximum 30 to 40 minutes.

Sarah: 00:07:17

They were around a coaching conversation around, um, how people were feeling within their role, the, the link to our values and our behaviors.

Sarah: 00:07:27

We asked people their percent of joy at work and that was really interesting.

Sarah: 00:07:32

And we still do that at WS kids, um, and.

Sarah: 00:07:35

That really helped actually, that one question.

Sarah: 00:07:37

It has been, I think, always been fundamental in leading the conversation and helping people to have really honest conversations about how they feel about their job, um, what else can be done to support them, to, um, feel more joy in their work, to be able to, um, feel better in their role and perform better in their role.

Sarah: 00:07:59

Um, and.

Sarah: 00:08:00

I think when we, when we started that process, there were people who said, this is just not good.

Sarah: 00:08:04

This is not right.

Sarah: 00:08:06

We can't do this.

Sarah: 00:08:07

But then after having had those meetings, they said that's the best meeting I've had to discuss like with a person how they're doing, um, um, compared to all the time that we'd done appraisals.

Maureen: 00:08:20

Just pulling back on the joyful question as well, because, um, initially when we first asked that at Happy, that sparked a big conversation.

Maureen: 00:08:28

It's like, what do you mean by joy?

Maureen: 00:08:29

You know, does it, do we be honest about how we feel at work?

Sarah: 00:08:33

And we've had similar conversations where people saying, can, can, can you ask about joy at work?

Sarah: 00:08:37

Is that right?

Sarah: 00:08:38

Like, can you have joy at work?

Sarah: 00:08:39

And my view is, well, if I think you spend about a hundred thousand hours at work throughout your lifetime, and if there isn't some joy in that

Maureen: 00:08:48

Come on.

Sarah: 00:08:49

and it's not good, um, and actually, um, joy makes you a, a good colleague and, and makes you happy in your job, which means that you will, you will, but you should be able to, to give better and do better as a result.

Sarah: 00:09:02

But I, I definitely, that question was one that people were a bit, um, wary of to begin with, I think.

Sarah: 00:09:08

But, uh, actually it, it, it, people are very honest in their answer and that's what's so great about it.

Henry: 00:09:13

And what brings you joy at work Sarah?

Sarah: 00:09:15

I would say, um, it is, it is working with a team of colleagues who are really motivated and, and seeing the positivity within them and knowing that you have enables a culture that that enables them to thrive.

Sarah: 00:09:30

I think.

Sarah: 00:09:31

And also obviously, um, in all my roles.

Sarah: 00:09:34

So at the hospice, but also now at with kids very much working with young I, working with young wheelchair users and seeing, uh, having great conversations with them and seeing the difference that we make that is so important to, to my role.

Henry: 00:09:46

And, and at the hospice, you went from required improvement to outstanding, didn't you?

Sarah: 00:09:50

Yes, within a year, um, which is something I'm very proud of.

Sarah: 00:09:53

So that's, that was our Care Quality Commission, um, CQC rating.

Sarah: 00:09:57

Um, and when I started, just not long after I started, we were inspected, um, and the organization, um, had a lot of change that was needed.

Sarah: 00:10:05

So it had, um, requires improvement, um, rating.

Sarah: 00:10:09

And my view was very much the culture was the, at the heart of all the, all the challenges that we faced.

Sarah: 00:10:16

There were lots of different challenges, um, in terms of, um, to empower the teams and enable them to be able to deliver, um, our work differently.

Sarah: 00:10:25

But actually most of it came back to culture.

Sarah: 00:10:27

And so my focus was on making that the number one priority, ensuring that, um, that was the thing that I just banged on and on and on about every day.

Sarah: 00:10:38

And for me, I think that's the difference that enabled us to get there so quickly to that outstanding rating.

Sarah: 00:10:45

Because the team went on that journey.

Sarah: 00:10:47

They believed in it, they understood it.

Sarah: 00:10:49

They, um, communicated with, they felt, understood and listened to.

Sarah: 00:10:54

And so we, we were able to reach that, um, that milestone much more quickly than i'd I possibly anticipated we could.

Henry: 00:11:02

So tell, tell us about, uh, how you've continued that at Whiskey.

Sarah: 00:11:06

Yes.

Sarah: 00:11:06

So I started at Whizz-Kidz, um, just under two years ago.

Sarah: 00:11:10

And, and, and again, similarly, um, the.

Sarah: 00:11:14

I, I think my focus has always been on having culture at the heart of what needs to happen to, to, we've needed quite a bit of change internally.

Sarah: 00:11:23

Um, and so culture has to be a fundamental part of that.

Henry: 00:11:27

do explain what W Kids does.

Sarah: 00:11:28

Oh yeah, so, so we are the UK's leading charity for young wheelchair users and we enable them to be mobile, um, enabled and included.

Sarah: 00:11:37

And we do that by providing equipment, so wheelchairs for young people.

Sarah: 00:11:41

And then we help to build their confidence and to, um, provide sort of a whole raft of experiences, um, as they grow into adulthood, that enable them to feel more confident as a young wheelchair user, um, and to be able to advocate for their rights as well, in particularly.

Sarah: 00:11:59

And then we, we campaign for a more inclusive society, so we raise public awareness about the needs of young wheelchair users.

Sarah: 00:12:06

And we also, um, lobby for change within policy, and the NHS.

Sarah: 00:12:11

Um, we've, we've piloted some different concepts.

Sarah: 00:12:15

I think you always have to test things with different people and different organizations.

Sarah: 00:12:19

Every, every group of people is different.

Sarah: 00:12:21

So we've looked at, um, piloting those concepts.

Sarah: 00:12:24

We've got some champions because we've got two people now on the Happy MBA course as well.

Sarah: 00:12:29

So they are, they're being allowed to test different things and to try out, um, different pieces of work.

Henry: 00:12:35

So Sarah, tell us about how the people are doing on the happy MBA.

Sarah: 00:12:39

Yeah, so we've got a number of team members on the Happy MBA and they are really flourishing through that course.

Sarah: 00:12:45

It's really helped them to, uh, think differently, to work differently, to encourage different behaviors and ways of working internally.

Sarah: 00:12:55

And, um, it's, I've just loved seeing how our team members have developed on that journey of being on the course, from starting off and not quite knowing what, what they'd be, um, involved with to just the learning process and being able to test different things and, um, wanting to do more and wanting to push things further, which has been brilliant.

Sarah: 00:13:16

So, we have, we've banished appraisals did that very quickly.

Sarah: 00:13:21

And I'm very much focused on, on putting the culture at the heart of everything.

Sarah: 00:13:26

We've changed our annual colleague survey is now very much about culture.

Sarah: 00:13:30

Um, it's about how people see the culture, how they feel it's doing, but also making sure that we've created a very safe space in which people can work, um, so that they can feel that they can speak up, so really emphasizing having a learning culture rather than a blame culture and, and having one where people can speak up and feel free to communicate particularly with me and with other members of the senior, um, management team.

Sarah: 00:13:54

And one of the other things that, um, I did very quickly cuz it's something that I really believe in as well, is just about changing the language.

Sarah: 00:14:00

So I believe.

Sarah: 00:14:02

I don't like, I really can't bear the word staff.

Sarah: 00:14:05

Um, brings me out in, in a rash.

Sarah: 00:14:08

Um, we're all colleagues, we're all adults.

Sarah: 00:14:11

We're working together.

Sarah: 00:14:12

So again, that was one of the pieces I've, of language I've changed on the first days.

Sarah: 00:14:16

I'm gonna speak like this, um, and I'm gonna call you colleagues.

Sarah: 00:14:19

I'm not gonna use the word staff.

Sarah: 00:14:21

Um, but also we had, um, Uh, very much a, a sense of headquarters.

Sarah: 00:14:25

So again, we very quickly changed that, um, because um, we have an office in London and it's now just the Park Street London office.

Sarah: 00:14:33

Um, so again, just to try to change that sense of language, um, within, um, the organization so that people felt involved and included.

Sarah: 00:14:41

And we also have very regular, um, we have monthly team meetings, which are now by Zoom because we have a lot of remote, um, team members.

Sarah: 00:14:49

I've used a lot of different breakouts, um, options and kind of liberating structures type, um, uh, options to, to be able to enable people to participate in those meetings so they're not just listening and, and hearing about what we're doing, but actually they're, they're having fun.

Sarah: 00:15:03

And so some of it is just about connecting colleagues and having silly conversations together, but also working through, working through specific, um, topics together as a group, in that sort of liberating structures way like the, the 1, 2, 4, and so on.

Henry: 00:15:17

T tell us about your favorite liberation structure.

Sarah: 00:15:19

Um, I like 1, 2, 4.

Sarah: 00:15:20

I really do like that way.

Sarah: 00:15:21

You build up a, a sort of a, a conversation and people start by thinking on their own, and then they, they move to a group of two and then a group of four because actually the, the, the concepts really evolve.

Sarah: 00:15:32

Um, and you see that discussion really evolving with them.

Sarah: 00:15:35

and I also just like, it's called the Mad Hat Tea Party type concept where you just have a very short break.

Sarah: 00:15:41

So we, we always have two minutes sessions where I just send them off to talk about a silly topic, um, and then come back, um, where it just reveals something about themselves and, um, enables them to connect more with a colleague that they might not know that well.

Maureen: 00:15:56

That's Henry's favorite one as well.

Maureen: 00:16:00

But it is, it's really great to use those different tools, especially with liberating structures cuz it does green, the, um, lots of opportunities, not, not only to get everybody involved.

Maureen: 00:16:11

And I think that's what's really coming up for me, listening to you, that, um, everybody's at the heart of your culture, that everybody's involved, everybody's got a voice and an opportunity to speak.

Maureen: 00:16:21

And I noticed that, um, uh, we've talked about, um, adopting a key mindset.

Maureen: 00:16:26

Can you tell me more around that?

Maureen: 00:16:28

How did you change the mindset?

Maureen: 00:16:30

How, how does that come up?

Sarah: 00:16:32

Yeah.

Sarah: 00:16:32

So, um, when I started we had to develop a new strategy, um, cause we needed to put a strategy in place.

Sarah: 00:16:37

Um, Fairly, fairly swiftly, um, when I started.

Sarah: 00:16:42

But actually we didn't, we didn't do that first.

Sarah: 00:16:44

We started with our values and our behaviors and we defined those.

Sarah: 00:16:48

Cuz for me, that's the most important thing, to set the tone and to agree how we were all going to work together.

Sarah: 00:16:53

So, um, the team did that.

Sarah: 00:16:56

We had a lot of sessions with, with, um, Our colleagues across the organization to define what would our values look like, what would those behaviors look like?

Sarah: 00:17:04

And we also consulted with young wheelchair users as well, because obviously we are all here for them and we want to know, um, their views on that.

Sarah: 00:17:12

So we did that piece first, and then with the strategy, we also really involved the team.

Sarah: 00:17:16

We, we, we did a, a big three, three horizons piece where everyone looked at what would our, our long term ambition be and what do we want to get to?

Sarah: 00:17:24

And then through that we then, um, as a team, drafted what our strategy might look like.

Sarah: 00:17:30

We took that back to the organization and, uh, we had lots of different challenge and discussions with different team members about whether that would work, what we needed to change, and we also discussed that with young wheelchair users and their families.

Sarah: 00:17:43

And then, then we came back with the final piece, which everyone had been on that journey with.

Sarah: 00:17:47

So that very much, it was part, them being part of it from the very beginning.

Sarah: 00:17:52

Um, and then that's really important to me that, that, that, that whole process, it started with values, but I I, but actually the, then it, it followed in a way of our values.

Sarah: 00:18:02

Cuz one of our values is about being collaborative and inclusive and ambitious and young people focused.

Sarah: 00:18:07

So we, we were able to harness all of that through the strategic development process as well, um, which demonstrated that we got the right values in the first place, which was also important.

Henry: 00:18:17

And tell us, you talked at, the Heart of Kent Hospice, at the conference, you talked about freedom within guidelines.

Henry: 00:18:23

Do you still practice those at Whizz-Kidz?

Sarah: 00:18:24

Yes.

Sarah: 00:18:25

Yeah.

Sarah: 00:18:25

We try to work on different projects and, and make sure that people have the, the freedom and are empowered to be able to get on with, um, what they, what they need to do.

Sarah: 00:18:34

One of the key things that I've been focusing on, um, particularly in the last six months or so, is a very wise, um, wise person said to me that leaders should only do what only a leader can do.

Sarah: 00:18:45

Um, I'm making sure that, that I question what I'm doing and should I be, um, am I doing this because only a leader can do this or am I doing this because I'm meddling and getting involved.

Sarah: 00:18:59

Um, and I think that's, that, that's something that I go back to a lot.

Sarah: 00:19:03

Um, and I think that enables that freedom within boundaries element as well, because I'm very much focused on, so if this is the task list for the year of what we need to get done, what can only I do?

Sarah: 00:19:15

And then therefore, what does everyone else need to do?

Sarah: 00:19:18

And how can I help them to do that?

Sarah: 00:19:21

And I think that's been a really good guide for me in as a thinking piece, constantly going back to that.

Sarah: 00:19:27

And, um, and that I, I hope, is creating a sense of freedom for, for colleagues as well, to be able to feel empowered, to be able to get on with what they know they need to do.

Sarah: 00:19:38

But they, they, I'm not getting involved in the weeds too much and, and enabling them to do that.

Maureen: 00:19:44

Great.

Maureen: 00:19:44

Cause I, I, I'm guessing this is how everything all ties in because whilst you're doing that and then you are having your, um, snapshot meetings at a regular basis, then people are able to just share what's going on and keep on track.

Maureen: 00:19:55

I think one of the things that I loved what you've mentioned, um, when speaking with Henry, um, during a blog was about breaking rules.

Maureen: 00:20:04

Now I am a rule breaker.

Maureen: 00:20:06

Okay.

Maureen: 00:20:07

So how do you encourage your colleagues to break the rules?

Sarah: 00:20:11

Ah, yes.

Sarah: 00:20:11

So we had a session at the hospice, um, which was focused on breaking the rules.

Sarah: 00:20:18

Uh, we asked people to pin on a big board, um, with post-it notes, um, what rules they would like us, um, to get rid of or ones that needed to change.

Sarah: 00:20:30

And it was a very simple process, but actually really helpful in order for us to be able to look at, take those post-its away, um, and identify what we could do differently.

Sarah: 00:20:41

Uh, one of the particular things that we then changed and worked with the team on was the uniform for some of our nurses and doctors and healthcare assistants.

Sarah: 00:20:51

Um, but one of the, the things we hadn't expected is it are highlighted to us that people thought there were rules and believed them to be rules, um, that didn't exist.

Sarah: 00:21:00

And, and they, by all accounts said their minds been in existence for years, um, but they were complete news to us.

Sarah: 00:21:07

We had no idea these rules existed, so we were then able to clarify to them that they were not, uh, rules, they were their perceived rules.

Sarah: 00:21:16

Um, and were able to ensure that people knew actually what was the reality and what was not the reality.

Sarah: 00:21:23

Um, which was a good relief because they, they'd, it helped to surface those issues.

Henry: 00:21:28

That's a really good session to have with your people, not only to get the rules that you want, that you want to break, but the ones that don't exist.

Sarah: 00:21:36

Exactly.

Sarah: 00:21:37

And then one of the other things that we did is we did, um, we had a big project coming up.

Sarah: 00:21:40

So we did a post-mortem and we thought, well, we'll turn this upside down.

Sarah: 00:21:44

And we actually started with, uh, imagining we got everyone together and we asked them to imagine what had gone wrong with the project, um, even before it started that what it's, the end of the project has gone wrong.

Sarah: 00:21:56

Why?

Sarah: 00:21:56

What's happened?

Sarah: 00:21:57

And, and again, with that, we were able to see what people's little and niggles and concerns were, um, and, uh, and helped to surface those through that process.

Sarah: 00:22:09

Um, and then to just be able to address those with them.

Sarah: 00:22:12

But also actually it threw out some great questions and ideas that we hadn't thought about, um, and it really helped us to think differently about how we approach some aspects of that project as we move forward.

Sarah: 00:22:23

So again, another way to turn the rules upside down.

Henry: 00:22:27

And tell me more.

Henry: 00:22:28

You, you, when you went to Whizz-Kidz, you uh, introduced your managers to

Sarah: 00:22:33

I, I didn't, I introduced them to Happy.

Sarah: 00:22:35

Um, and I, I made sure that all of our directors and our heads of department had a copy of the Happy Manifesto, asked them to read it and just explain something.

Sarah: 00:22:46

I, I liked a lot..

Henry: 00:22:47

So at at, when you talked at about being CEO at Keart of Kent Hospice, you talked about stopping making decisions.

Henry: 00:22:56

So tell us, sarah, which decisions do you make and which don't you make at, at Twist kits?

Sarah: 00:23:00

So I I, don't make ones, which I shouldn't do.

Sarah: 00:23:03

Now I'm really, I'm trying not to because I'm only making decisions that only I should do.

Sarah: 00:23:09

There are things like we, we've got our, our website, uh, being developed at the moment, a new website for us.

Sarah: 00:23:14

I've, I have minimal involvement in it.

Sarah: 00:23:16

They're the experts.

Sarah: 00:23:17

The team are the experts.

Sarah: 00:23:18

Um, they've got a great, um, vision of what they want from it.

Sarah: 00:23:22

We've, we've, um, done a lot of user, um, involvement in terms of understanding what we need from it.

Sarah: 00:23:29

And so things like that, I'm not gonna make a decision about what the structure of the website should look like.

Sarah: 00:23:35

I'm not an expert in that.

Sarah: 00:23:37

Um, and I have allowed them, um, to, to just get on with the job.

Sarah: 00:23:41

Um, and because they're the experts.

Sarah: 00:23:43

But, and so things like that, I'm, I perhaps where years ago I probably would've been heavily involved and spent hours in meetings over at, um, I'm just not anymore because actually we've got a great team and they know what they're doing and so things like that.

Sarah: 00:24:00

Um, we are developing a new CRM.

Sarah: 00:24:02

Similarly, I get feedback on how the project is going, but, um, but I'm not involved, uh, on a daily basis because I don't need to make those decisions cause I'm not the expert on those things.

Maureen: 00:24:12

But it goes down back to trust as well, you know, um, people feeling safe and the freedom of guidelines.

Maureen: 00:24:18

So again, as I say, everything always usually just comes back together.

Henry: 00:24:22

So Sarah, tell us your three tips for a happy workplace.

Sarah: 00:24:26

So my three tips would be, um, first and foremost, uh, be kind, uh, lead with kindness and respect.

Sarah: 00:24:34

Uh, I think.

Sarah: 00:24:36

As a leader, you should be a role model in kindness.

Sarah: 00:24:39

And kindness is not a weakness.

Sarah: 00:24:42

I think pe some people think that kindness means that you might be weak and and unable to, to, to perform in your role, but actually I think it's a strength and you can still make very difficult decisions, but you can do them with kindness.

Sarah: 00:24:56

And I think that also comes back.

Sarah: 00:24:58

Your kindness comes from having a sense of purpose and knowing what's right.

Sarah: 00:25:03

And that's when you can make difficult decisions and you can communicate them well, um, because you understand that everyone is a human being, that people have lives and you need to treat them with kindness.

Sarah: 00:25:17

My second tip would be, coming back to the conversation we had earlier, Maureen is about trust.

Sarah: 00:25:24

Uh, treat people like adults and they will act like adults.

Sarah: 00:25:27

You've got to see the potential p in people and allow them the opportunity to shine, uh, because otherwise you just won't get the best out of them, and, and I think that's so important.

Sarah: 00:25:39

When I was listening to the Tom Peters podcast and he was talking about the a and b team at Google, it made me laugh because many years ago, I won't say how many, um, when I was at university, I was a Cox for the rowing team, cuz as you know, Henry, I'm, I'm rather short, um, but rather loud.

Sarah: 00:25:56

So I cocked the team and I cocked the, A team for quite a while.

Sarah: 00:26:00

Um, and then I had exams, and so, um, I had to just, uh, stop, stop for a while and not, not do as much.

Sarah: 00:26:08

And then after the, the Cambridge and Oxford boat race, there was another race that happens that afternoon called the Head of the River, which is the, yeah, lots of boats from lots of universities and organizations that go in the other direction.

Sarah: 00:26:21

And so it's the same length, same distance.

Sarah: 00:26:23

It's pretty tough and there's a lot of boats on the river.

Sarah: 00:26:25

And, um, our coach said to me, will you do, will you, will you Cox the B team?

Sarah: 00:26:30

Because I hadn't been training with the A team and I said, absolutely, I'll come along and I'll Cox the B team.

Sarah: 00:26:34

And the B team had been out the night before, got horribly drunk.

Sarah: 00:26:37

I don't think they'd had.

Sarah: 00:26:38

Any sleep.

Sarah: 00:26:40

And I got on the boat and just said, should we just thrash 'em then?

Sarah: 00:26:44

And um, and the thing is, when you do the race, you've no idea where, how you've done.

Sarah: 00:26:48

And the coach came to me at the end and said, you beat them by 40 lengths.

Sarah: 00:26:52

They're.

Sarah: 00:26:54

But, but actually it was just that, that team, I, I trusted the B team to do what they needed to do.

Sarah: 00:26:59

They were motivated to do what they needed to do, and they were allowed to shine.

Sarah: 00:27:04

And then my third tip, would be about a learning culture.

Sarah: 00:27:07

You've got to eliminate blame, not tolerate blame.

Sarah: 00:27:10

Um, you've got to encourage people to learn from mistakes.

Sarah: 00:27:14

Allow them to make mistakes.

Sarah: 00:27:16

Um, obviously if you make the same mistake three times and three times, then you've got a question, a learning ability, um, but actually you've got to allow people to learn and you've got to allow them.

Sarah: 00:27:29

No one's perfect.

Sarah: 00:27:30

Everyone's human, everyone makes mistakes.

Sarah: 00:27:33

Um, but actually you learn so much from your mistakes, um, much more than than when you do with your successes

Henry: 00:27:40

Those are fabulous tips.

Henry: 00:27:42

So thank you Sarah.

Henry: 00:27:43

You've been fabulous.

Sarah: 00:27:45

you for having me on Henry Maureen.

Sarah: 00:27:47

Much appreciated.

Maureen: 00:27:51

There was, again, lots in there.

Maureen: 00:27:52

I'm just looking back on my notes.

Maureen: 00:27:53

I was trying to scribble as I went along, but I mean, at the heart of it all was about the values, the culture, and trusting, you know, and I think those are key words that keep coming back up,

Henry: 00:28:04

And it was interesting how she, how she re referred to snapshots, where she, you'd already referred to

Maureen: 00:28:09

Yes.

Maureen: 00:28:10

Yes.

Maureen: 00:28:10

See, so it's important.

Maureen: 00:28:12

I think everybody needs to start thinking about that because I used to, I remember appraisals, I used to get nervous about

Henry: 00:28:18

Our praise us are so, so dreadful,

Maureen: 00:28:22

I know

Henry: 00:28:22

if if any of you are doing appraisals,

Maureen: 00:28:25

stop.

Maureen: 00:28:25

it now.

Maureen: 00:28:26

stop.

Maureen: 00:28:27

it now.

Maureen: 00:28:27

I always felt like I was going to school to get told off.

Maureen: 00:28:30

You know, manager's going to tell me off now, but, um, no, I, I, I'd love that.

Maureen: 00:28:36

And her, her tips that she, um, she ended with, that lead with kindness and respect.

Henry: 00:28:43

Which was Tom Peter's point, wasn't it?

Henry: 00:28:45

You remember?

Henry: 00:28:45

He said, be kind.

Henry: 00:28:46

Be kind, be

Maureen: 00:28:48

That's it.

Maureen: 00:28:49

That is it Something so, so simple that can make a difference and that can change the behaviors and the culture in the, within the organization.

Henry: 00:28:57

Well, what I'd love, what I'd love is when people take the Happy Manifesto and actually implement it.

Henry: 00:29:03

You know, and she's absolutely implemented it, but absolutely in her way.

Henry: 00:29:09

And you know, that's it.

Henry: 00:29:11

And she's created two great, happy, happy workplaces in Heart of Kent Hospice and Whizz-Kidz.

Maureen: 00:29:16

Yeah.

Maureen: 00:29:16

And she's carried it on.

Maureen: 00:29:17

You know, as you said, she's from left one to go into the other and she's a rule breaker.

Maureen: 00:29:22

Well, she and she encourages rule breaking.

Maureen: 00:29:24

We love that.

Henry: 00:29:25

Which is really interesting in a regulated industry like the Heart of Kent Hospice, that you break rules there.

Maureen: 00:29:31

And ju um, something that really, really, um, stood out for me as well was that not just about evolving everyone in the process, that she even got the clients involved.

Maureen: 00:29:42

You know, the youth were involved in the journey, in the process, and given the platform the voice to say what's working and what's not.

Maureen: 00:29:50

So what I would like to know is what you thought about this conversation.

Maureen: 00:29:54

If you've got any thoughts, any ideas, or anything that you wanna share or anything that you've done in your organization, just get in touch

Henry: 00:30:01

henry@happy.co.uk, maureen@happy.co.uk.

Maureen: 00:30:04

So yeah, just reach out any ways, any means necessary.

Maureen: 00:30:07

We'd love to hear from you.

Henry: 00:30:09

So, let's carry on creating